Showing posts with label narcissism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label narcissism. Show all posts

Sunday, May 20, 2018

Anger: The Right to be Upset; a Facebook discussion

'The right to be upset' : 'anger' : 'righteous indignation'
A Facebook discussion

Original Post:
I just heard the phrase 'the right to be upset' following the BYU scripture professor backing off saying Jesus was angry to shifting it to righteous indignation during the cleansing of the temple because he had a right to be upset at how they were treating his home. That framing, of the right to be upset, seems like it may be the tool needed to address this 'anger equals sin' issue I post about so much.

If I can remember, next time someone implies or states that I am wrong for feeling angry, I intend to ask them straight out if they are saying I don't have the right to feel upset, or to feel something they don't like?

Because ultimately, it isn't as much about what we feel about something but about what we choose to do about it. Do we bridle it into productive action or do we fly off the handle in any negative action that occurs to us? Just as the sin is not in being tempted but in choosing to act on it, experiencing 'anger' is not automatically sin but rather an incitement to act either negatively or positively. Your choice.

Positive reactions to what makes us upset:

Negative reactions to what makes us upset:

Let's brainstorm, shall we?

Mary:
I think it is a mindset that keeps being reinforced, intentional or not, and it continually plays into the attitude that "anger" is synonymous with sin. I recently watched a talk from an education week that was focused on us being responsible and accountable for all of the things that happen to us. The speaker expressed that when we react or feel anger, we are embracing Satan's most effective tool, because we get caught up in seeking blame, justice and validation, and end up seeking revenge and leaving and turning against the church. His premise is that we should be asking ourselves if we want to be right or righteous, and keep ourselves close to the scriptures and counsel of our leaders, and leave our angry feelings aside, as to not go down Satan's trail. The things he said have merit, but in a very narrow frame. For him to make it such a broad stroke for everyone who feels anger, regardless of the source, must leave Narcs cheering on the side lines. It left me feeling that speaking out against abuse or expressing anger is rocking a spiritual boat that will only lead us to ruin. What really upset me was the huge amounts of comments he got supporting his talk. Many, many expressed their annoyance with people who allow themselves to be seen as victims, feeling that they just need to deal with it privately and quietly. Many specifically complained about people who have endured sex abuse and domestic violence. After I got over the shock of such insensitivity, I realized there is a very long way to go in the church to see anger in it's proper perspective, and realize that it does have it's place in healing, forgiving, and coming to terms with what to do in the future. We're not talking about going into a rage because someone took the last cookie or said something you didn't like. To lump it all together is not only hurtful, but makes people who are very damaged by real mistreatment and abuse being very much all alone. It's a good thing that Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost understand, because too often they are the only ones to turn to.

Patsy:
I think of anger as a totally normal and understandable reaction to injustice that we need to try to get past so that we don't get stuck in it.

Katie:
I also often discourse on the misuse of 'victim' whenever I see it in other groups and posts. Those comments you describe, Mary, would have seriously set me off and made a lot of people mad, ironically considering what they are arguing...

Patsy:
It's also not someone else's place to decide how we are handling our feelings and how we are progressing in the forgiveness process. If someone told me I had no right to feel angry, I would give them some details of what I have experienced which I'm sure would shock them.

Mary:
I think part of the reason people, especially members, embrace these attitudes is that it makes it easier to feel they're safe from such things. I have a friend who refers to this attitude as the 13th Article of Faith syndrome. We should always look for best, etc. etc., but we're not supposed to hide behind it, so we never have to feel worried such a problem could affect us, or feel we should try and show support. When we expect everyone to just handle their serious problems, whatever they are, privately and quietly, we're really saying we don't want to be bothered or deal with anything unpleasant. Patsy is right, we don't want to get stuck in anger, but to process it and move through it. Unfortunately, when people can accuse others of just succumbing to the "sin" of anger, it can shut down the process and make it take longer, or cause someone to actually get stuck in it.

Katie:
Even the 'getting stuck in anger' can be a problematic statement, though, because that holding on to saying 'this isn't right, this isn't ok' enables the sustained efforts that can address long term efforts to change things and fix problems that take more than just saying no or leaving would accomplish.
In ACON (adult children of narcissists) specific terms, I know part of my finally breaking free was the fourteen months at a certain job that left my brain free to relive everything bad about home till I could finally own the anger I felt instead of preventing the emotion as I'd done for ten years. That sounds backwards from what most say is the right way but I'd lived a backwards situation where it was never entertaining anger, never comprehending a right to feel angry because I was so convinced I was a slave without rights that allowed me to finally admit, years later, that I'd been abused. Healing would never have been possible if I could never admit to injury and that required valuing myself enough to say this wasn't ok. In other words, I was divinely led to relive what finally brought out the anger so that I could actually walk away from what was causing the harm. Otherwise I would have just kept trying to pretend everything was ok while my very being was destroyed because I had no anger to enable the birth of boundaries.

Katie:
To expound on how important that was: finally allowing the anger at my treatment is what led me to the realization that I didn't want NF (narc father) to be my father in the next life which made the doctrinal logic that verifies that option jump out at me when I came across it. And reaching that conclusion was what HF (Heavenly Father) was waiting for to then prompt me seeking temple blessings again (without familial knowledge). And five days after that was the final NF attack wherein the prompting came that I was done with home, that I could leave and never have to deal with them again. Two months later, I was moving hundreds of miles away. And the anger was key to enabling that because I'd turned it off for so long that it had to be sustained for me to finally allow what it was telling me to sink in.

Patsy:
In that sense, the anger was healthy. If your anger had led you to become vengeful, then it would have had a negative impact.

Mary:
I agree that you can't put a timeline on it. When I think of being stuck in anger, I think of some of the people I've seen in some other groups where their anger has just turned into venting and arguing, and lashing out. I think their feelings are real, but I'm not sure if only expressing it that way is gong to get them anywhere. I have appreciated the fact that people in this group have expressed real pain and anger, but try to refrain from being destructive, and trying to deal with their feelings. It is right, though, that we can't decide for others what is ok to feel. You have used your anger to understand and solve problems and move your life forward to heal. That, to me, is using your anger or righteous indignation to listen to the promptings, and then follow through with your actions. Not only is that not a sin, it is very righteous feelings and actions.

Katie:
That's my point, Patsy. Anger is always and only spoken of as negative which is why people complain of victims dwelling instead of moving on and why it's almost only spoken of in terms of anger equals sin. But there is a whole other side to it that isn't negative and it's dangerous to do that. How many abuse victims are trapped because they have to silence that feeling that says this isn't ok because that would mean they are sinning? It needs to be recognized and discussed as a multi dimensional thing and the focus put on how you choose to respond to it instead of the fact that it even exists.

Katie:
And that means it needs to be taught, Mary, how to take anger and channel it into the healthy action of righteous indignation (I really dislike that term, so unwieldy and pretentious) instead of letting it drive us into sinful action. I always see the bridle your passions being used just for romantic feelings, but I think it applies to all strong feelings. Bridle your anger to productive use. But that requires a collective comprehension that anger is there for productive use in the first place.

Patsy:
That seems to be the key: Anger alerts us that something unjust was done. We can then use that response to chose how to proceed. I too have seen people in some other groups (most notably Daughters of Narcissist Mothers) who see anger as the final goal. They wallow in it as if doing so exacts the revenge they dream of, but they are destroying their own humanity in the process. In those cases, their abusers have accomplished their purpose of wreaking havoc on their victims. Psychologists will tell you that we have reached a higher plane when we no longer feel emotional pain when recalling traumatic events. That is my goal.

Mary:
And that is where the problem comes. People often only hear what they want to, and when victims speaking up are perceived the way they are, especially with speeches over the pulpit, it is easier for  people to hide behind the false perception. Education is what it's all about. Speaking up where we can, teaching our own families and close friends etc. all helps. We also have to be realistic and realize we are going to get serious push back, and do our best not to let it trigger us. Channel our anger to the positive, and encourage and support others trying to do the same. We may not be able to turn the whole church around, but do all we can to help people not feel they are alone in the struggle. Using the anger to propel us forward, and then at some point, be able to lay it down is the best way to defeat our Narcs, and is a worthy goal.

Side note:
Patsy:
We also hear and read about "the wrath of God", so even He gets angry at those who seriously disobey and mock Him.
That's one thing that helps me cope with the injustice of this world -- knowing that sinners will reap the consequences of their actions if they don't repent. We don't have to force justice ourselves. All we have to do is protect ourselves from our abusers and let God take care of the rest.

Thursday, March 9, 2017

Qs for ACONs J#2: Warnings and encouragements for other ACONs?

What warnings or encouragement do you have/would you give to other ACONs in similar situations?



  • It gets easier with time after going no contact. The anger you feel towards the abusive parent lessens, although it can rear up unexpectedly, even many years later.

    Forgiveness is important, but it is a process that might take a long time. Forgiveness doesn't mean you need to mend fences and allow your abuser to be a part of your life.

    There is hope and healing ahead. I reconciled with a sister (Anna) after not seeing or speaking to her for 25 years. Our fractured relationship was collateral damage because of our nm. We now have a wonderful, loving , healthy and stable relationship. Don't give up hope for family members you want to have a relationship with.

    ~Elsa



  • I think to follow your own instincts and not let the guilt and the gaslighting, wherever or whoever puts it out there make you doubt yourself. Times when I knew things were way off kilter, even though I didn't understand exactly why, I didn't listen to my inner compass. Things don't always come as promptings, but rather a recognition that the dysfunction you're dealing with is more destructive than it may seem from the outside. I kept trying with certain relationships with family narcs because I didn't want to believe they were so far into the behavior that they were a danger and a threat to everyone around them. They're fueled by hate and anger, a need to control people, and if they can't control them, then just destroy them any way they could find. I kept thinking if I loved them enough, or tried harder etc. etc. etc. somehow they would get to a healthy, loving place and things would be better. Fortunately for me, Heavenly Father gave me such a strong prompting that I needed to find the truth and get to the bottom of things, and I couldn't ignore it. I listened, searched, prayed, did my homework, followed through on things I was told, instead of just believing what I was told, and eventually found the whole depth of all the ugly, evil truth and finally went NC (no contact) with those I needed to for good. I now have great relationships with the emotionally healthy people in the family (Elsa  ). My big regret is that I didn't stick to my instincts, and follow through with the NC many years ago. A lot of heartbreak and damage would have been prevented. As Elsa said, once you stick to NC, and time goes on, things get so much better. I have a peace and happiness in my family relationships for several years now that I had never had for even one day in my whole life before that. ~Anna




  • Trust yourself and God, first. They want you to doubt yourself, your perception of reality, and everyone except for themselves. This is a large way they maintain control. Learn to be self aware so that when they attack and accuse, you can weigh it for accuracy and dump the lies. Know that you have a whole life ahead of you as soon as you are free to leave. That hope kept me going. When it gets confusing, disengage and focus on what is clear. Don't be surprised if no one else in the family will listen or believe you. Narcissists build a complex web of distortions to support their needs so being born into the middle of one means it's already established how they want it. Look instead for connections that prove the narc patterns wrong. The narcs will try to undermine them because that threatens them, but that is simply more proof of what they are. The more you understand narc patterns and dynamics, the easier it will be to brush off their abuses as their own flaws rather than the flaws they declare are your own. If the abuse is bad enough you have found your way to researching it, there is likely nothing you can do that will correct the intrinsic decay. You can do everything you possibly can and it will never be enough. Instead of blaming yourself for failing as they do, accept it isn't your fault and let go knowing you've done enough. Beware other abusers who tend to recognize abuse victims as vulnerable. Take your time to heal before jumping into a relationship. Know that your successes count and you are far more capable than they will ever acknowledge. Know that perfection is not necessary for satisfaction and sufficient effort. Good enough is a great place to start and as long as you are trying, you are already there. Explore you interests. Try new things. Allow yourself to experience life. Watch the life and community around you to see options you never knew existed, particularly when considering employment and career possibilities. Now go make your life the life you've dreamed of having. ~ Aspen

Monday, February 20, 2017

Qs for ACONs J#1: How has narcissism affected you?


  • Affected what type of man I was attracted to. Not good until I learned. ~ Lone Star

  • I have very little self esteem. I feel like I don't matter, my needs don't matter, my contributions don't matter. I'd like to be invisible. When people say kind things, no matter how sincere or well deserved, I cannot accept these compliments. They roll off of me, like water off a duck. For example, on Sunday a member of the Stake presidency told me how outstanding my son is. He truly is, but I said "thank you, but I can't take credit. He had good seminary teachers and YM leaders." Pres. H insisted that I did deserve much of the credit, but that's very, very tough for me to acknowledge.~Elsa. (Since Let it Go is my life's anthem.)

  • My issues are very similar to Elsa, and we grew up with the same NM and NS, but I actually did feel invisible growing up. I was the oldest, but much older, and always felt like I was watching a program I wasn't actually part of. Some of it was too painful to watch, and the rest of it just left me feeling like I wanted my life to be somewhere else. I've also also always lived with a never fixable sense of loss. Elsa coming back in my life has done a great deal to help heal that feeling of loss. ~ Anna

  • I always feel like I am invisible to people and like I won't be remembered. I feel confused like I am lost in space when I am around that type of personality. I felt like my thoughts were being read by my N.M. and I had no privacy around her. I felt like a prisoner since I was at least 8 yrs of age crying grateful that I only had 10 more years before I could leave home which I did do at 18. ~ Angel Wings

  • Narcissism attacks their victims' perception of self and their place in the world. In a religious context, it also undermines our ability to have a healthy relationship with God. This happens on multiple fronts. If you are always being told not to bother people, praying means you are bothering God. When even your basic needs as a child are resentfully and minimally fulfilled, it becomes very hard to feel like you can ask for/pray for anything beyond what you absolutely have to have to survive. When the narc uses (abuses) their claim to authority (D&C 121:34-40), those behavior patterns are then anticipated in other authority figures and those in similar positions as the abuser. That is part of the PTSD that commonly occurs in child abuse. In my case, my sense of God often distorts from the gentle, patient, kind being to an all-powerful version of the dominant narc in my life. And that is a terrifying concept. I've been working on changing that pattern by choosing to believe myself instead of what the programming declares, but it takes work. That is actually integral to overcoming the abuse on all fronts. Part of narc abuse is something called gas-lighting, which means they actively work to undermine the victim's sense of reality. The more they can train us to doubt ourselves, the more control they have. Overall, it has meant I have had minimal support throughout life and now no contact with any family since they have either adopted narcissism themselves, are enablers, or want to hide from the fact that the family dynamics are rotten to the core. ~ Aspen